U.F.O Finding the Truth 1/UFO Finding the Truth 1 (Disk 1 of 2).adf/UFO_AREA51.5

Text File | 1989-05-09 | 27KB | 1,283 lines

DATE OF UPLOAD:  December 30, 1989

ORIGIN OF UPLOAD:  ParaNet Information Service

CONTRIBUTED   BY:  Robert  B.  Klinn  -  ParaNet   Director   of

                   Investigations and Research

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(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service

All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.

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On the Record, KLAS-TV, Las Vegas, Nevada, 12/9/89, 7:00 p.m.-

7:30 p.m.



George Knapp, producer/host

Robert Lazar, guest



George Knapp:

Hello, and welcome to On the Record.



One month ago, we began a series of reports about UFOs.  With the
exception of a few cranky newspaper people, the response has been
overwhelmingly positive.  We've had requests for more information
from  all over the country and from all over the world.   Tonight
we're  going to delve a little deeper into the subject  with  the
man  who was the impetus for our report in the first  place,  Bob
Lazar.



Bob,  good to have you here.  A thumbnail sketch of yourself  for
those who might not be familiar with your background.



Robert Lazar:

I worked at Los Alamos National Lab.



Knapp:

As a physicist?



Lazar:

As a physicist, and hired as a senior staff physicist at Area  S-
4, for what I was told anyway was the United States Navy.



Knapp:

Where is S-4?



Lazar:

It's  about 10 to 15 miles south of Groom Lake, about  125  miles
north of Las Vegas.



Knapp:

How did you get the job?



Lazar:

I really don't want to mention the guy who I got it through.  But
I  was  referred to a person at EG&G to drop off  my  resume  to;
that's  where  I was interviewed; though the  job  is  COMPLETELY
unrelated to EG&G.



Knapp:

What  did they tell you you were going to be doing?  Or DID  they
tell you?



Lazar:

No,  they really didn't tell me until the very end.  They said  a
high-technology job, something that I'd be very interested in.



Knapp:

Okay, so you get hired.  And what happens?  Do you fly up there?



Lazar:

Fly  up there.  First day was reading briefings and that sort  of
thing.   And it became evident to me pretty quickly the level  of
technology they were dealing with:  gravitational propulsion  and
things that science has really only barely touched on.



Knapp:

We'll  get into the things that you saw in a couple  of  minutes.
But  it's  been about a little more than three weeks  since  your
identity was made public.  We had you on another program a couple
of  months  ago  --  using an assumed  name  and  having  you  in
silhouette  -- but since your identity has been made  public  and
since this information has been made public, what's it been like?
What's been the response from people that see you on the street?



Lazar:

The  response has been almost all favorable.  In  fact,  everyone
that I've run into has been very supportive, very interested.   I
guess there's just two or three letters --



Knapp:

-- from people that don't believe you?



Lazar:

Yeah.  Essentially.



Knapp:

Responses from other media outlets as well?



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

They want to interview you?  What do they want?



Lazar:

Essentially everything, yes.  Radio interviews, TV interviews.  A

lot  of people want to dig back into my background  and  re-trace

everything.



Knapp:

Many of the people who have been calling -- calling us as well --
were under the impression that either you've gone underground  or
you've been silenced or we've been silenced by dark and  sinister
forces.  Anything like that happen to you so far?



Lazar:

That's ridiculous.  People are always going over the deep end  on
that.   And no one's told me -- other than originally --  not  to
say anything.  And I'm sure no one's come forward to you.



Knapp:

But in the beginning, they told you to keep quiet about this.



Lazar:

Oh yeah!  It's the most secret program in the United States.



Knapp:

In what way did they try to make sure you kept your mouth shut?



Lazar:

Everything up to death threats.  I mean CONSTANT reminders of it,
signing  away  my constututional rights for fair trial  and  that
sort of thing.



Knapp:

And since this thing, your phone's been tapped, you believe?



Lazar:

Yeah, I believe.  I have a tap detector, and occasionally after I
pick up the phone, a little red light goes on.



Knapp:

The  reason you came forward with the information to begin  with?
Is it related to the fact that they were bothering you?



Lazar:

Yeah, it was essentially to stop that.  What had happened was,  I
sent in a request for my birth certificate, and as it turned  out
it wasn't there anymore, that I wasn't born at the hospital!  And
that  kind  of  got me wondering what's going on.   I  put  in  a
request  for some other information, previous jobs, and that  was
also  gone,  and  I thought something had to  be  done  before  I
disappeared.



Knapp:

The same thing -- it was Los Alamos? They've never heard of you?



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

Anything happened since the reports have aired?



Lazar:

They let me know that they were around by doing stupid,  childish
little things.  But nothing serious, no.



Knapp:

You  were  worried  about your LIFE though  for  a  while  there,
weren't you?



Lazar:

That was one of the reasons to come on and let everything out  on
the air; it's a little of insurance.



Knapp:

Are you worried any more?  Do you get the feeling you're over the
hump?



Lazar:

To some degree, yeah.



Knapp:

Do you find that most people really believe you or that they just
want more information?



Lazar:

I  think alot of people believe what I said, but the  majority  I
think  do  just  want more information, too.   It's  an  in-depth
subject.



Knapp:

Let's look at some of the technology you saw.  When did you first
get  the  idea,  what's the first thing you  saw  that  made  you
convinced that it's not from here?



Lazar:

The  first  thing was HANDS-on experience  with  the  anti-matter

reactor.



Knapp:

Explain what that is and how it works and what it does.



Lazar:

It's a plate about 18 inches in diameter with a sphere on top.



Knapp:

We  have a tape of a model that a friend of yours made.  You  can
narrate along.  There it is.



Lazar:

Inside  that  tower  is a chip of Element 115 they  just  put  in
there.  That's a super-heavy element.  The lid goes on top.


And  as  far as any other of the workings of it, I  really  don't
know, you know, [such as] what's inside the bottom of it . . .



115  sets up a gravitational field around the top.   That  little
wave guide you saw being put on the top:  it essentially  siphons
off  the  gravity wave, and that's later amplified in  the  lower
portion of the craft.



But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.



Knapp:

Now we saw the model.  We saw the pictures of it there.  It looks
really, really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything.



Lazar:

Right.



Knapp:

Working parts?



Lazar:

None  detectable.   Essentially, what the job was  was  to  back-
engineer everthing, where you have a finished product and to step
backwards  and find out how it was made or how it could  be  made
with earthly materials.  There hasn't been very much progress.



Knapp:

How long do you think they've had this technology up there?



Lazar:

It seems like quite a while, but I really don't know.



Knapp:

What  could you do with an anti-matter generator?  What  does  it
do?



Lazar:

It converts anti-matter . . .
It   DOESN'T  convert  anti-matter!   There's   an   annihilation
reaction.  It's an extremely powerful reaction, a hundred percent
conversion  of  matter  to energy, unlike  a  fission  or  fusion
reaction  which is somewhere around eight-tenths of  one  percent
conversion
of matter to energy.



Knapp:

How does it work?  What starts the reaction going?



Lazar:

Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated.



Knapp:

Automatic.



Lazar:

Right.



Knapp:

I  don't  understand.   I  mean, there's no  button  to  push  or
anything?



Lazar:

No, there's no button to push or anything.



Apparently,  the 115 under bombardment with protons lets  out  an
anti-matter particle.  This anti-matter particle will react  with
any  matter  whatsoever,  which I imagine there  is  some  target
system  inside  the reactor.  This, in turn, releases  heat,  and
somewhere  within  that system there  is  a  one-hundred-percent-
efficient thermionic generator, essentially a  heat-to-electrical
generator.



Knapp:

How  is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity  generation
that you were talking about earlier?



Lazar:

Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a  tremendous
amount  of electrical power, which is almost a  by-product.   The
gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's  through
some action of the 115, and the exact action I don't think anyone
really knows.



The  wave  guide  siphons  off  that  gravity  wave,  and  that's
channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there
are  three  gravity  amplifiers, which amplify  and  direct  that
gravity wave.



Knapp:

In essence creating their own gravitational field.



Lazar:

Their own gravitational field.



Knapp:

You're  fairly convinced that science on earth doesn't have  this
technology  right  now?  We have it now at S-4, I guess,  but  we
didn't create it?



Lazar:

Right.



Knapp:

Why not?  Why couldn't we?



Lazar:

The technology's not even -- We don't even know what gravity IS!



Knapp:

Well, what is it?  What have you learned about what gravity is?



Lazar:

Gravity  is  a  wave.  There are many  different  theories,  wave
included.   It's been theorized that gravity is  also  particles,
gravitons, which is also incorrect.  But gravity is a wave.   The
basic wave they can actually tap off of an element:  why that  is
I'm not exactly sure.



Knapp:

So you can produce your own gravity.  What does that mean?   What
does that allow you to do?



Lazar:

It  allows you to do virtually anything.  Gravity  distorts  time
and  space.  By doing that, now you're into a different  mode  of
travel,  where instead of traveling in a linear method  --  going
from Point A to B -- now you can distort time and space to  where
you essentially bring the mountain to Mohammad; you almost  bring
your destination to you without moving.



And since you're distorting time, all this takes place in between
moments of time.  It's such a far-fetched concept!



Knapp:

Of  course, what the UFO skeptics say is, yeah, there's life  out
there  elsewhere  in the universe; it can never come  here;  it's
just  too darn far.  With the kind of technology  you're  talking
about, it makes such considerations irrelevant about distance and
time and things like that.



Lazar:

Exactly, because when you are distorting time, there's no  longer
a  normal reference of time.  And that's what producing your  own
gravity does.



Knapp:

You  can go forward or backward in time?  Is that's  what  you're
saying?



Lazar:

No,  not essentially.  It would be easier with a model.   On  the
bottom  side of the disk are the three gravity generators.   When
they  want  to travel to a distant point, the disk turns  on  its
side.  The three gravity generators produce a gravitational beam.
 What they do is they converge the three gravity generators  onto
a point and use that as a focal point; and they bring them up  to
power and PULL that point towards the disk.  The disk itself will
attach  ONTO  that point and snap back -- AS THEY  RELEASE  SPACE
BACK TO THAT POINT!



Now  all this happens in the distortion of time, so time  is  not
incrementing.  So the SPEED is essentially infinite.



Knapp:

We'll get into the disks in a moment.  But the first time you saw
the  anti-matter reactor in operation or a demonstration  --  you
had a couple of demonstrations -- tell me about that.



Lazar:

The  first time I saw it in operation, we just put -- a friend  I
worked with, Barry -- put the fuel in the reactor, put the lid on
as, as was shown there.



Immediately, a gravitational field developed, and he said,  "Feel
it!"   And  it  felt like you bring two like poles  of  a  magnet
together; you can do that with your hand.  And it was FASCINATING
to do that, impossible, except on something with great mass!  And
obviously this is just a . . .



And it was a REPULSION field.  In fact, we kind of fooled  around
with it for a little while.  And we threw golf balls off it.  And
it was just a really unique thing.



Knapp:

And you had other demonstrations to show you that this is  pretty
wild stuff, right?



Lazar:

Yeah,  they  did.  They were able to channel the field off  in  a
demonstration  that they created an INTENSE  gravitational  area.
And you began to see a small little black disk form, and that was
the bending of the light.



Knapp:

Just like a black hole floating around?



Lazar:

Yeah, well, a black hole is a bad analogy, but yeah, essentially.



Knapp:

And  they  gave  you  some  kind  of  demonstration  about  time,
involving a candle?  Explain how that works.



Lazar:

Yeah,  they took a candle and lit it and put it in the  distorted
gravitational  field,  which distorts time, and the  candle  just
stood   there.    It  didn't  melt  or  burn.   It   was   REALLY
unbelievable!



Knapp:

You had to be floored by seeing all this.



Lazar:

Oh  I was!  That's why I'm kind of laughing about it now  because
it must sound ridiculous to everyone.  But it's just  phenomenal.
I mean this is really alien technology.



Knapp:

About the 115:  We talked a little bit about it in the series  of
reports.   Explain what it is again and why you believe it  could
not be manufactured here.



Lazar:

Okay,  it's a super-heavy element:  On the periodic chart,  which
lists   all  the  elements  found  on  earth  and  that  can   be
synthesized,  I think the highest element we've  synthesized  has
been about Element 106.



Now from 103 -- or actually, anything higher than plutonium up --
the  half-life  begins  to  drop; in  other  words,  the  element
disintegrates.  When you get up to Element 106, it's only  around
for  a very small amount of time.  Even science  today  theorizes
that  up around Element 113 to 116 -- somewhere in there --  they
should  again become stable.  This is in fact true.  That's  what
Element 115 is; it's a stable element.



To  synthesize  it would be impossible.  The  way  we  synthesize
heavy  elements  is,  we take a stable element  like  bismuth  or
something  like  that,  or plutionium, whatever,  put  it  in  an
accelerator,  and  BOMBARD  it with  protons.   Essentially  what
you're  trying  to  do  is plug in protons  into  the  atoms  and
increase  the atomic number.  To do that to the level of  Element
115  would just take an infinite amount of power and an  infinite
amount of time.



Knapp:

What  kinds  of things, what capabilities would a  heavy  element
like this have -- I mean other than producing power?   Obviously,
it can produce a LOT of power, right?



Lazar:

It  in itself is not anti-matter.  It just has a unique  property
of  producing  it.  Any of the other basic properties  it  has  I
really  don't know of.  But using just the  anti-matter-producing
property,  the  potential  for  a  weapon  is  staggering!   It's
absolutely staggering!



Knapp:

Like what?  A pound of it:  what could it do?



Lazar:

Well,  2.2  pounds  is the energy  equivalent  of  47  10-megaton
hydrogen  bombs.   I mean, it's a good bang!  And a  pound  of  a
super-heavy element is maybe the size of a plum or something like

that.



Knapp:

I  guess what I've heard most from people who just don't buy  the
whole  story is that sure, maybe you work at an area called  S-4,
and  maybe it is a secret area, but what you were shown is  stuff
that  we've made.  That we made this 115 -- if it is 115 --  that
we  made  the  flying  disks,  that  we  made  these  anti-matter
reactors,  because  these are advances that you just  don't  know
about.



Lazar:

Hardly.
[Lazar laughs.]



Knapp:

Why not?



Lazar:

Well,  the 115, it's impossible.  And the FACT that the main  job
of  everyone there is to find out how everything's made;  I  mean
that  just  contradicts  everything  right  off  the  bat.    The
materials  are completely alien to us, and just the overall  idea
of  the  project is:  Hey, can we duplicate this  with  materials
that we have here?  So obviously, it was something that was found
or given, for that matter, and we're just trying to duplicate it.



Knapp:

The  115:  Where do you suppose it came from then?  I mean,  what
kind of environment would that kind of element come from?



Lazar:

The  only  place  that 115 could be made would have to  be  in  a
natural situation, somewhere maybe on the fringes of a  supernova
or  somewhere around maybe a binary star system, where there  was
more  mass  in the primordial mix of that system,  where  heavier
elements  would  have had a chance to form, when the  stars  were
collapsing and there were huge amounts of energy being  released.
It's  something  along  these lines; it has to  be  a  naturally-
occurring element.



Knapp:

You  saw  an  anti-matter reactor.   You  saw  gravity-propulsion
systems  in flying disks, flying saucers.  You saw  this  Element
115.   You also read a series of reports that had other  stunning
information.  Can you give an overview of the kind of things that
were in these reports?



Lazar:

The  reason I didn't do that before was, first of all  they  were
just reports.  Everything else I had hands-on experience with.



Now  there  was LOTS of strange information in the  reports,  but
there   again  it's  just  printed  material  and  it  could   be
disinformation.  I don't know.  But certainly, the information  I
did read in the reports about 115, the disks, the grav -- I mean,
that all had material that related to that.



The  reports  went into aliens and even went along the  lines  of
religious --



Knapp:

Well,  we can let our audience know.  I mean we  discussed  this,
when we were putting this series of reports together, whether  to
get  into the alien thing or not, and we decided not to  for  the
time  being.   It's  not like you're hiding  something  from  the
audience  or whatever, it was just a decision we made.   But  you
did  see  reports -- whether they're true or  not  --  Government
reports about aliens.



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

What were the reports?



Lazar:

There  were photographs of aliens.  There were  autopsy  reports.
There was really a wealth of information.



Knapp:

What did they look like?



Lazar:

The typical "grey."  I hate to say that, like anyone knows what a
typical  grey is.  It's a creature, probably three and a half  to
four feet tall, a large hairless head, black, slanted eyes,  long
arms, very thin-looking.  I don't know how else I would  describe
them.



Knapp:

What  does  an autopsy report look like?  What's included  in  an
autopsy report that you said you read?



Lazar:

The reason I call it an autopsy report is I saw the carcass -- it
was obviously a dead alien -- carcass cut up and it was all  dark
inside  like  it  had an iron base.  The reason  I  say  iron  is
because  it was very dark blood or whatever.  I'm not  a  doctor,
but  it  seemed to be one large organ in the body as  opposed  to
identifiable heart and lungs and that sort of thing, but just one
gooey mess in it.



Knapp:

What  did the report say?  It had pictures; it had to  have  some
words:  "Here's Exhibit A, an alien"?



Lazar:

Essentially  so!  They had weights and densities of  the  organs,
said  there  were no conclusions drawn, but it was just  a  basic
description of what the person who was cutting open the body saw.



Knapp:

Say where they came from?



Lazar:

Yeah,  in one of the reports it said they came from Reticulum  4,
was what it said.



Knapp:

Where is that?  Any idea?



Lazar:

[Lazar laughs.]
Well, I'm told it's a star system in Zeta Reticuli.  Reticulum is
the constellation.


And by "Reticulum 4," they meant the fourth planet out from  that
sun.



In  the  same reports, we were identified --  instead  of  saying
Earth,  we were identified as "Sol 3," meaning the  third  planet
out from our sun.



Knapp:

Now  you've  read a lot of UFO material.  Do  you  find  yourself
mixing what you've read and what you've learned from up there?



Lazar:

No,  that's why I stay away from the UFO researchers  and  things
like  that.  I really don't want to be associated with  that.   I
don't research the stuff.  It's interesting to read, but no,  I'm
not mixing anything that I've read into this stuff.



Knapp:

We were just talking about the UFO field in general, and you feel
a little reluctant to get mixed up in it, although you ARE  right
now.



Lazar:

Unfortunately, yeah.



Knapp:

Why the reluctance?



Lazar:

I  don't  know.  There are so MANY  stories  circulating  around.
Everyone has their own view.  Each UFO researcher says they  have
the  right  story.  And essentially, I don't want  to  side  with
anyone  because I don't know where that information's come  from,
though  they  do all have the basic story:  you know,  there  ARE
alien crafts here; how they got here is, probably aliens  brought
them here, unless we really have a neat setup with the UPS.



There's   just   so  many  different  factions   of   them   [UFO
researchers],  and  they all kind of war between  each  other;  I
really don't want to get associated with them.



Knapp:

Before  you  got  into the program at S-4,  though,  you  had  an
interest  in  UFOs.  It must be hard for people to  swallow  that
here's a guy who has an interest in it and he gets hired into the
program.



Lazar:

Well, there was a very brief time there I had sent out resumes to
several  places,  and I wanted to get back  into  the  scientific
field  again.   Almost simultaneously, I met John Lear  and  read
some  of  his  material.  And initially, I thought  he  was  just
absolutely  crazy.  But apparently, he did have a good source  of
information  because,  as it turns out, some of  the  information
that he had I actually had hands-on experience with.



Knapp:

But  your  regard for UFOs in general:  As a scientist,  did  you
think there was something to it?



Lazar:

Absolutely not.



Knapp:

Absolutely nothing?



Lazar:

No.  I would have stood on that 'til the day I died.



Knapp:

Many  of the people who have been calling are UFO groups  or  UFO
researchers  who have demanded that you talk to them:  We've  got
to talk to this guy; we want to give him a lot more publicity  so
he stays alive; we want him to give us information so that we can
further  check out his background, etc.; we want to protect  him;
we want to help him.



You've resisted.  You've done this program; you've done a  couple
of  reports  with  us; and you've done a radio show  or  two;  in
general,  you've  resisted going into the UFO  circuit.   Why  is
that?



Lazar:

Just like I mentioned before:  I just don't want to be associated
with those guys.



And  how many people are you going to open up your background  to
and let them run rampant through it?  I mean, private detectives,
every UFO group in the world wants to do that!  The idea was  for
me to release the information, essentially to protect myself  and
take  some of the heat off.  And I've done that.  And that's  all
that needs to be done, really.



Knapp:

Certain  UFO researchers claim they've been  getting  information
from  you all along; you've been leaking stuff to them; and  that
they've  read these reports that verify the information.   You've
been working with UFO groups while you were in the program at S-
4?



Lazar:

Not UFO groups.  I did mention a couple of things to some people.
That's all I'm gonna say.



Knapp:

Okay.   In essence, were you breaking your vows that you made  to
the Government?



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

And  why  did you feel that was necessary?  I mean, you  took  an
oath, didn't you?



Lazar:

Yeah.  But look at the magnitude of what was going on.  I believe
that  some  of the technology -- maybe all of the  technology  --
should be kept secret, until we have a handle on everything.  But
certainly, the overview of what happened just cannot be a  secret
from anyone -- not just the American people, but the rest of  the
world.



Let  out  the basic fact that we have these craft,  at  one  time
aliens  did at least visit and drop off something,  however  they
got  here,  that  there was some contact made, and  then  cut  it
short.  You don't need to release the information on the  gravity
generators,  the weapon potential -- which is enormous -- and  so

on.



Knapp:

What could you do with that technology?  Say you took the  flying
disks, the anti-matter reactors, the gravity generators, gave  it
to  Los  Alamos  or Livermore, let  them  examine  the  potential
abilities  of this stuff.  I mean, how would this affect life  on
earth if this stuff was widely available?



Lazar:

And mass-producable?



Knapp:

Yes.



Lazar:

That's  tough  to say.  I mean, you have a  completely  different
mode of travel.  What happens when you can play with time?   That
gets into a really deep philosophical question there.



Knapp:

But I mean, it would change a lot of stuff, change everything.



Lazar:

Oh yeah!  It would change absolutely everything!



Knapp:

Do you think it will ever come out?



Lazar:

Personally, no.



Knapp:

What  do  you  hope happens, both with  yourself  and  with  this
information?



Lazar:

There's been enough thorns put in their toes to where they do try
and release something.



Knapp:

We'll have to have you come back, Bob.  Thanks for joining us.